The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

Size=everything · 2009-06-19 15:09:05

Why do you feel there is so little talent right now coming from outside Leinster? Other than Earls Munster have no one to show and Ulster have only a couple. Meanwhile Leinster have Jonny Sexton, Ian Keatley, Jamie Heaslip, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney, Cian Healy, Fionn Carr, Sean O'Brien, Devin Toner, Paul O'Donaghue,…

19-06-2009 03:09PM

#1

Size=everything

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Why do you feel there is so little talent right now coming from outside Leinster? Other than Earls Munster have no one to show and Ulster have only a couple. Meanwhile Leinster have Jonny Sexton, Ian Keatley, Jamie Heaslip, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney, Cian Healy, Fionn Carr, Sean O'Brien, Devin Toner, Paul O'Donaghue, Ian McKinley, Felix Jones as well as 12 out of the 15 starting players for the Irish Under 20s World Cup squad.

Now the playing pools excuse doesn't add up as Ulster are producing little when compared to Leinster despite having a bigger pool and Munster aren't that far off Leinster's pool to warrent such little return. This leads me to the question : Does Leinster have a better youth system than the other provinces and if so why is that?

The Leinster Schools Cup teams are always far stronger than the teams from Munster and Ulster and Leinster school teams regularly beat comfortably the best schools teams from Wales and England despite England having a far larger playing pool! And its not even a case of one or two schools in Leinster being capable of beating any school in the rest of Ireland outside Leinster and the UK you have six schools (Blackrock, Terenure, Clongowes, Belvedere, St.Marys, St. Micheals) all of them regularly and comfortably showing their dominance.

This leads me to the conclusion that the Leinster branch has far better coaching in place at a schools level than other provinces and this is something that needs to be looked at. Imagine how many prospects Ireland would have if Ulster had the ability to produce even half the amount Leinster have and if Munster were able to churn out some more youngsters! The fact is bar Earls, Ferris, Cave, Pollock, Caldwell all the talent for the future is Leinster coached.

Opinions?

(Slightly O/T but just seen a Leinter academy player Connor McIreney has signed for Ospreys anyone have info on this player??)

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#2 19-06-2009 03:14PM

thomond2006

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There's a ****load of Munster talent coming through.

Tommy O'Donnell
Felix Jones (he's ours now )
Ian Nagle
Billy Holland
Tim Ryan (gone to Toulon )
Dave Ryan
Donncha Ryan
Ciaran O' Boyle
Andrew Burke
Conor Murray

.................to name a few

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#3 19-06-2009 03:16PM

tughfc

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have to agree with this statement because all the facts are true!! i know where you are coming from and it seems to be a forever growing issue in irish rugby!!!

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#4 19-06-2009 03:19PM

Crash

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Gonna request people don't start just screaming "crap interprovincial thread blah blah" on this one, as young player development is a very interesting one. Can also move some of the crap thats been posted about it on other threads here if it continues.

While I do think the Leinster academy system is doing EXTREMELY well at the moment, I most likely underestimate the Munster and Leinster academies simply through having less knowledge about them.

As an aside: Munsterfans has a thread going on about this at the moment, which is an interesting viewpoint - http://munsterfans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20219&TPN=1

edit: Oh, and you can't claim Felix Jones as your young talent Thomond, Leinster trained him up Like Carr and Keatley as well for that matter.

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#5 19-06-2009 03:19PM

Size=everything

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thomond2006 wrote: »

There's a ****load of Munster talent coming through.

Tommy O'Donnell
Felix Jones (he's ours now )
Ian Nagle
Billy Holland
Tim Ryan (gone to Toulon )
Dave Ryan
Donncha Ryan
Ciaran O' Boyle
Andrew Burke
Conor Murray

.................to name a few

Tim Ryans 25 and hasnt played regularly at the senior level ditto for Ryan who I believe is 26, Jones is Leinster acadmey and the others haven't started more than 1 or 2 games for their province and weren't involved in the Churchill Cup (and with the lions on the CC was essentially a chance for the youngsters)

Like if your going to mention players like the above I could go on to mention players such as Dave Kearney, Ian Madigan, Keating, McGrath etc. who have started for Leinster and/or Leinter A and are regular starters for their AIL teams at 18

It still doesnt add up.

And I'm not trying to have a swipe at Munsters youth system I am just genuinely curious same goes for Ulster. Connacht are slightly more understandable due to the playing pools size there

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#6 19-06-2009 03:23PM

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Crash wrote: »

Gonna request people don't start just screaming "crap interprovincial thread blah blah" on this one, as young player development is a very interesting one. Can also move some of the crap thats been posted about it on other threads here if it continues.

While I do think the Leinster academy system is doing EXTREMELY well at the moment, I most likely underestimate the Munster and Leinster academies simply through having less knowledge about them.

As an aside: Munsterfans has a thread going on about this at the moment, which is an interesting viewpoint - http://munsterfans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20219&TPN=1

edit: Oh, and you can't claim Felix Jones as your young talent Thomond, Leinster trained him up Like Carr and Keatley as well for that matter.

Yes agree, I don't want this thread to be closed because someone decides to take offence as I feel this could be a very interesting thread.

Also thanks for the link, interesting read.

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#7 19-06-2009 03:23PM

Nothingcompares

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Size=everything wrote: »

Why do you feel there is so little talent right now coming from outside Leinster?

I assume you're from leinster? I was always under the impression that the best schools teams in leinster were better than their interprovinical rivals but I don't know if this is true.

I'm sure there is a natural cyclical element to it, probably not so long ago when POC, DOC, ROG, Stringer, Shehan, Wallace were coming through a schools system and people were asking how come there no talent in leinster feeding through.

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#8 19-06-2009 03:24PM

Tim Robbins

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Size=everything wrote: »

(Slightly O/T but just seen a Leinter academy player Connor McIreney has signed for Ospreys anyone have info on this player??)

Leinster has more people playing Rugby at schools and youth level. So statistically, they should have more young stars.

However, when the AIL came around Munster clubs wiped the floor of the Leinster ones as the Munster clubs were more competitive and just of a higher standard. Limerick derby's were always a big thing whereas not many cared if Mary's beat Wesley. In fact, the Dublin club just seemed like old boys clubs for school mates. Whereas, the Munster ones: Con, Shannon, Garryown have no strict affiliation with a school and had their own identity.

The AIL then gave the backbone of a pretty good Munster team which made 4 H cup finals and 6 semi's. Even O'Connell and Leamy played a good bit of AIL before coming through at senior level.

Things might change now as the AIL clubs can't put as much into players as they used to. Munster still have players such as O'Gara, Stringer, Wallace, Hayse etc who played a good bit in the old AIL.

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#9 19-06-2009 03:25PM

TarfHead

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Size=everything wrote: »

.. and Ulster have only a couple.

A bit harsh ?

McCrea, Whitten, Cave, O'Connor, Pollock & Henry. Hopefully the new coach will trust the new blood as much as Matt Williams did.

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#10 19-06-2009 03:25PM

Four-Percent

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thomond2006 wrote: »

There's a ****load of Munster talent coming through.

Tommy O'Donnell
Felix Jones (he's ours now )
Ian Nagle
Billy Holland
Tim Ryan (gone to Toulon )
Dave Ryan
Donncha Ryan
Ciaran O' Boyle
Andrew Burke
Conor Murray

.................to name a few

Ah here now, you really can't claim that felix jones came through at munster And Tim Ryan is after leaving to get proper gametime because he couldn't fully break through there.

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#11 19-06-2009 03:27PM

Size=everything

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Nothingcompares wrote: »

I assume you're from leinster? I was always under the impression that the best schools teams in leinster were better than their interprovinical rivals but I don't know if this is true.

I'm sure there is a natural cyclical element to it, probably not so long ago when POC, DOC, ROG, Stringer, Shehan, Wallace were coming through a schools system and people were asking how come there no talent in leinster feeding through.

Yes I am from Leinter but thats irrelevant before I came to these forums I had never even heard of provincial fighting it doesnt matter what province the player was from as long as he is Irish to me! So lets not derail the thread!

But during the time of POC,DOC,ROG,Stringer and Wallace Leinster had O'Driscoll, D'arcy, Dempsey, Murphy, Hickie etc.

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#12 19-06-2009 03:30PM

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TarfHead wrote: »

A bit harsh ?

McCrea, Whitten, Cave, O'Connor, Pollock & Henry. Hopefully the new coach will trust the new blood as much as Matt Williams did.

Yes a bit harsh but of those players Cave and Pollock were the only real Ulster produced players who got any game time at the top level

meanwhile Leinster had :

Sean O'Brien
Kearney
Fitzgerald
Sexton
Toner
Keatley
Fionn Carr
Healy
Heaslip

all playing top level

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#13 19-06-2009 03:31PM

Tim Robbins

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Nothingcompares wrote: »

I assume you're from leinster? I was always under the impression that the best schools teams in leinster were better than their interprovinical rivals but I don't know if this is true.

Note I'm not a big fan of schools rugby, I think more emphasis on clubs would be better for the game. But, I would safely say the top 8 Leinster schools would walk over the Munster ones.

Not because they are better players, but they just train more days and are playing more competitive matches and are bigger schools.

For example, Crescent is mixed now, which cuts its players in half.

There also isn't that intense over the top thing in Munster. In Munster you can be play for your school and your club whereas in Leinster they don't like that happening. I belief they are trying to stop this happening in Munster but the clubs will resist it I'd say.

A point of note is that a relative new Rugby school came along in Munster in '08 (or '07) and won JCT and SCT.

That would never ever ever ever ever ever ever happen in Leinster. In fairness, it would be hillarious if it did, but it never would.

Occasionally you might get a lower rank school win a plate against Gonzaga seconds but they'd never win the the top JCT / SCT prize. Never.

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#14 19-06-2009 03:35PM

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Tim Robbins wrote: »

Note I'm not a big fan of schools rugby, I think more emphasis on clubs would be better for the game. But, I would safely say the top 8 Leinster schools would walk over the Munster ones.

Not because they are better players, but they just train more days and are playing more competitive matches and are bigger schools.

For example, Crescent is mixed now, which cuts its players in half.

There also isn't that intense over the top thing in Munster. In Munster you can be play for your school and your club whereas in Leinster they don't like that happening. I belief they are trying to stop this happening in Munster but the clubs will resist it I'd say.

A point of note is that a relative new Rugby school came along in Munster in '08 (or '07) and won JCT and SCT.

That would never ever ever ever ever ever ever happen in Leinster. In fairness, it would be hillarious if it did, but it never would.

Occasionally you might get a lower rank school win a plate against Gonzaga seconds but they'd never win the the top JCT / SCT prize. Never.

I agree that I think its the difference in school level coaching that makes the difference.

Also lets not forget the rise of Kilkenny and CBC Monkstown two new schools to the SCT top level who have shown they are more than capable of holding their own!

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#15 19-06-2009 03:41PM

Tomtom364

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i dont think it is something to worry about because you have to look at the players going out as well.
all those leinster palyers hae come in while someone was at the end of their career.

munsters young players arnt breaking through yet because there havnt been many players retiring.
horan, hayes, flans(who was a munster youngin), DOC, POC, Leamy, quiney, wallace, stringer, ROG are all still going and have been going for a rather long time.

space has opened up and munster have brought up fogarty, buckley, both ryans, hurley, earls and murphy, they have also brought players from other provinces where they wernt getting a chance, dowling and ronan, and these players are proving them selves in munster

leinster have had holes in their team that needed to be filled and thus their players are the ones that are breaking through at the moment

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#16 19-06-2009 03:45PM

GymJim

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[Jackass] wrote: »

*sigh*

Well, they do bring them through. Regular young players in the Leinster over last couple of seasons and / or will be next year...might as well put together a profile of them, cause it really is ridiculos...and then let no more be said!!

Cian Healy* (most promising prop in Ireland, lots of game time, 21)
Luke Fitzgerald (B&I Lion, 21)
Jamie Heaslip (B&I Lion, 25)
Devin Toner* (one of the most promising 2nd rows in Ireland, lots of game time, 23)
Kevin McLaughlin (may be his break through year..mark my words..class player, reason Ronan let go, 24)
Johno Sexton* (Number 2 out-half in Ireland, will be surpries if not first choice by world cup, 23)
Ian Keatley (one of the most promising 10's in Ireland, first choice at Connacht, Leinster could use him back, 22)
Sean O'Brien* (Most promising flanker in the country imo, loads of game time, outstanding player, 22)
Fionn Carr* (first teamer at Connacht, top try scorer in ML, 23)
Felix Jones* (gone to fill gaps at Munster, will probably be a first teamer at FB, 21)
Rob Kearney (B&I Lion, 23)
Eoin O'Malley (hope it's his break through season, fine versatile player, already in full squad, deffinitley a big one for the future, 20)
Paul O'Donohoe (No doubt future Irish Scrummie, man of the match AIL final, bags of talent, 2nd choice at Leinster, 21)
Fergus McFadden* (top class centre, finisher & goal kicker, getting game time, 23)
Ciallian Willis (got some game time for Ulster, didn't make the impact expected yet, 24)
Niall Ronan* (on the brink of first team at Munster, 2nd or 3rd top try scorer last season iirc, 27)
Conor McInerney (Good versatile player up front, gone to Ospreys, 22)

* Denotes good chance of getting capped in near future from the uncapped players.

All of the above are either getting first choice rugby regularly or are right on the brink but have gotten game time and are worth a mention. The below are Leinster academy players who have excelled at under age level and who I would expect to have big futures:

Jamie Hagan (Prop, very strong in scrum, last played v Queensland reds, 22)
Royce Burke Flynn (went to S.A. with Ollie to train, massive man, big future, 22)
Jason Harris Wright (Promising Hooker, hoping to see progress to senior squad soon, 21)
Dave Kearney (better than his B&I Lion brother at under-age level, 20)
Shane Monahan (lots of traffic ahead of him, but superb big player, Shane Horgan mould with bags more pace, 22)
Kyle Tonnetti (again, lots of traffic ahead of him, but outstanding in AIL, may well be senior squad for next season, lots of younf talent in Leinster backs though, 22)

Munster: (feel free to add, but as far as I'm aware...)

Keith Earls (B&I Lion, 21),
Thomas O'Leary (B&I Lion, 26),
Barry Murphy (getting game time, yet to prove himself, 27),
Donnacha Ryan (game time, yet to prove, 25),
Denis Fogarty (had some good game, 26)...

not exactly churning them out...didn't realise how old these "promising" players are...most mid to late 20's...I think pretty much every Leinster player above who's still at Leinster is younger than every one of these guys with the exception of Earls...

I wonder how good some of the Leinster players will be by mid - late 20's? Fitz will probably have 2 Lions tours under his belt my mid-20's...

This seems to be a hot topic right now!! But there ya go!

This has previously been thrashed out on the below thread therefore wanted to include a pretty comprehensive list of players agreed on before.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055593589&page=2

Added to the Munster list are the following players:

Andrew Burke (OH with some ML game time this year and U20 OH, 19)
Conor Murray (SH in ML squads this year and U20 SH, 20)
Dave Foley (A team regular lock and on ML panel, 20)
Eoghan Grace (former U20 captain, 21)
Peter O'Mahony (U20 captain & no.8, 19)
Tommy O'Donnell (will make breakthrough in backrow this year, 22)
Tom Gleeson (next centre to make brekthrough, 23)
Billy Holland (Cork Con captain, ML regular and mammoth v AB's, 23)
Dave Ryan (prop played in AB game and a no of ML games, 21)
Ian Nagle (U20 squad lock and pro contract signed, 20)
Darragh Hurley (prop with previous games in HEC - injured last year but Munster's version of Cian Healy, 22)
Duncan Williams (A team/Cork Con SH and ML game time last year, 23)
Mark Melbourne (ML squad player past 2 years, 24)
Ciaran O'Boyle (number of good games on wing in ML this year, 24)
Denis Hurley (Lots of HEC experience and Irish A caps, 24)
Jeremy Manning (3rd choice OH, 24)

Felix Jones (NABBED )

Can also add McKinley and Keating amongst others to the Leinster list.

As for Ulster feel it's a bit harsh to ignore their academy breakthroughs over the last few seasons...Bowe, Trimble, Ferris, Pollock, Henry, Caldwell, Marshall, O'Connor, McCrea, Cave, Whitten. And we can't ignore their U20's such as Macklin, McAllister, Spence and Shiels.

Connacht have eh...Andrew Browne and Moran from the U20's...and that's it

Overall looking pretty good for Irish rugby going forward.

My 2c worth is that the academies have a very different focus. As Leinster schools is almost professional in training the players are coached by good coaches from a young age and come into the academy at a far more advanced stage whereas Munster have to essentially use the elite athlete system to pick the very best only and have them absolutely live and breathe the game to ensure they make it to the Munster squad. I think both will prove effective as the main current focus for Munster is to get ready-made replacement ready to take over from a few of the current crop over the next few years as a matter of urgency (i.e. Hayes, Quinlan, Stringer, ROG). In this respect a lot of time has been invested in the likes of Darragh Hurley, Billy Holland, Conor Murray and Andrew Burke for example.

Perhaps Munster's efforts seem short-sighted but I think they have to be at the moment.

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#17 19-06-2009 03:54PM

GymJim

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Tomtom364 wrote: »

i dont think it is something to worry about because you have to look at the players going out as well.
all those leinster palyers hae come in while someone was at the end of their career.

munsters young players arnt breaking through yet because there havnt been many players retiring.
horan, hayes, flans(who was a munster youngin), DOC, POC, Leamy, quiney, wallace, stringer, ROG are all still going and have been going for a rather long time.

space has opened up and munster have brought up fogarty, buckley, both ryans, hurley, earls and murphy, they have also brought players from other provinces where they wernt getting a chance, dowling and ronan, and these players are proving them selves in munster

leinster have had holes in their team that needed to be filled and thus their players are the ones that are breaking through at the moment

Exactly if Miller didn't retire then Jennings wouldn't have seen game time. Costello gone making room for Heaslip, Ollie gone making room for Healy eventually, Hickie goes making space for Fitz, Dempsey slowing down to make space for Kearney, Contepomi gone to leave space for Sexton, O'Kelly slowing down to make space for Toner.

In the past few years, Munster have been very settled. POC, DOC, ROG, Wally etc. have been first choice for a long time and they will finish at a point. Even POC had to wait for Gaillimh to slow to get a chance. If Sheahan hadn't gotten injured Fla wouldn't have seen game time. Leamy slipped in once Foley/Williams were coming to an end. There is a natural succession and I think Leinster have seen this progress in recent years abut it's on the way for Munster. This is when we will really see how well their academy is working.

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#18 19-06-2009 03:56PM

Amazotheamazing

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Look at it like this, Leinster and Ulster have far more rugby schools than Munster or Connacht.

In Munster there's only PBC, CBC, Munchins, Crescent, Castletroy, Ardscoil and maybe Glenstal. A lot of other schools might have teams, but not of a very high standard.

So, underage, as you'd expect, Leinster and Ulster dominate but when it gets to senior level, Munster clubs are far stronger. Con, Shannon and Garryowen are by far the strongest clubs teams of the last 20 years. In fact, not one Leinster or Ulster club has been anywhere near as consistent as those three.

That's the reason for Munster's success, imo, a massively strong club scene. Look at the amount of nominally great underage talent in Leinster playing in the AIL Div 2 next year. While Peter O'Mahony is with Con or Burke is with Garryowen, half the Leinster academy will be playing effectively two divisions lower with Lansdowne or UCD due the restructuring of AIL Div 1. As for the Ulster clubs....

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#19 19-06-2009 03:56PM

Paul Smeenus

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I think you have a definite point, there does seem to be a lot of sparkling talent coming out of Leinster at the moment. But I also think you're cutting your cloth to suit. I'm only really qualified to talk about Ulster, to be fair, so I'll do so.

But if you're including Heaslip, why not Trimble? They're the same age. And Ferris is 23 - a year younger. You attribute Keatley's success to Leinster, rather than the experience of playing regularly for Connacht. Fair enough, but do we not then get crediit for Bowe?

O'Connor, Whitten and Henry have played Heineken Cup rugby - the toughest games being against Stade Francais in Paris and Harlequins at home, and done respectably. They've now also all played for Ireland "A". Henry was supposed to play in the full Ireland internationals this summer, but was injured. Caldwell (24) did get his first Ireland cap.

I know the likes of Fitzgerald and Kearney are way ahead of them, but there's a difference between not producing talent and not producing the very best talent. And if you're going to mention Paul O'Donaghue, then every palyer I've mentioned has played at a similar or higher level.

We all know our own provinces better than the others, and whilst, as I said, I agree generally with your point (especially given the dearth of under 20s Ulster players!), I don't think the disparity is what you think it is.

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#20 19-06-2009 03:56PM

Chucky the tree

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Tbh up until recently the lack of players coming through Leinster has been shocking considering it has huge population advantage. For Munster a big problem is players find it hard to break through because the players ahead of them are so good where as Leinster haven't had this problem.

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#21 19-06-2009 03:58PM

Crash

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GymJim wrote: »

Perhaps Munster's efforts seem short-sighted but I think they have to be at the moment.

You have a decent point there actually, however I think it might be a tiny bit too shortsighted. if you look at the current starting 15:

Warwick - 28
Howlett - 30
Earls - 21
Mafi - 26
Dowling - 26
O'Gara - 32
O'Leary - 25
Leamy - 27
Wallace - 32
Quinlan - 34
O'Connell - 29
O'Callaghan - 30
Horan - 31
Flannery - 30
Hayes -35

The main fear I see there is that potentially that 5 out of the pack are in their latter years, but still a couple left, while two are in their last season or so. That makes potentially 7 losses over the next while from the pack, which will be extremely hard work to rebuild, as well as your 10. Its not a nice position to be in for any team, longterm, tbh.

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#22 19-06-2009 04:03PM

Amazotheamazing

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Crash wrote: »

You have a decent point there actually, however I think it might be a tiny bit too shortsighted. if you look at the current starting 15:

Warwick - 28
Howlett - 30
Earls - 21
Mafi - 26
Dowling - 26
O'Gara - 32
O'Leary - 25
Leamy - 27
Wallace - 32
Quinlan - 34
O'Connell - 29
O'Callaghan - 30
Horan - 31
Flannery - 30
Hayes -35

The main fear I see there is that potentially that 5 out of the pack are in their latter years, but still a couple left, while two are in their last season or so. That makes potentially 7 losses over the next while from the pack, which will be extremely hard work to rebuild, as well as your 10. Its not a nice position to be in for any team, longterm, tbh.

It's hard to break into a settled team.

Guys like Donncha Ryan or Denis Fogarty could step in to the team now without a huge collapse in Munster's form. It remains to be seen what will become of Buckley, we'll see if Gert Smal has made something of him over the last few weeks.

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#23 19-06-2009 04:04PM

Stev_o

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How many Leinster Academy and A players are playing Division 1? Compare that to Munster products in Division 1.

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#24 19-06-2009 04:07PM

Size=everything

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GymJim wrote: »

Added to the Munster list are the following players:

Andrew Burke (OH with some ML game time this year and U20 OH, 19)
Conor Murray (SH in ML squads this year and U20 SH, 20)
Dave Foley (A team regular lock and on ML panel, 20)
Eoghan Grace (former U20 captain, 21)
Peter O'Mahony (U20 captain & no.8, 19)
Tommy O'Donnell (will make breakthrough in backrow this year, 22)
Tom Gleeson (next centre to make brekthrough, 23)
Billy Holland (Cork Con captain, ML regular and mammoth v AB's, 23)
Dave Ryan (prop played in AB game and a no of ML games, 21)
Ian Nagle (U20 squad lock and pro contract signed, 20)
Darragh Hurley (prop with previous games in HEC - injured last year but Munster's version of Cian Healy, 22)
Duncan Williams (A team/Cork Con SH and ML game time last year, 23)
Mark Melbourne (ML squad player past 2 years, 24)
Ciaran O'Boyle (number of good games on wing in ML this year, 24)
Denis Hurley (Lots of HEC experience and Irish A caps, 24)
Jeremy Manning (3rd choice OH, 24)

Felix Jones (NABBED )

But other than Daragh Hurley, Ryan, O'Mahony and Holland I really can't see any of them break through.

Burke is third choice outhalf for Irish Under 20s.
Murray is second choice to Matthew Healy for Irish Under 20s
Foley didnt make the Irish under 20
Grace has gotten no game time at top level
O'Donnell has had no game time at top level
Gleeson has had no game time at top level
Nagle doesnt start for Irish Under 20s
Williams played one ML game last year and at 23 hasnt been seen since and Muster have signed another back up SH.
Melbournes has had no game time at top level
Dennis Hurley in my eyes is not a prospect

Like the players I listed for Leinster were all getting game time at ML level at the very least I wasnt going to list academy players but even still Leinster come head and shoulders above Ulster, Munster and Connacht

Jack Mcgrath (Leinster A game time at prop at 18, starter for Irish Under 20s and AIL club)
Thomas Sexton (Regular started for Irish Under 20s, AIL club)
Thomas Flanagan (Starter for Irish Under 20s)
Dominic Ryan (Starter for Irish Under 20s)
Dave Kearney (Started ML, Leinster A regular and regular for club and Irish under 20s)
Sheridan (Leinster A, Club and regular starter for Irish Under 20s)
Ian Madigan (started for Leinster, regular Leinster A, Regular Irish under 20s)
Keating (Leinster A, scoring tries for fun in AIL, regular for Irish under 20s)
Matthew Healy (Leinster A, regular for Irish Under 20s)
Ian McKinley (Started for Leinster, regular for club and Irish Under 20s, Leinster A)

All those players are all under 20 as well but if I was to include the other players on the fringe of ever making the leinster 22 then :

Royce Burke Flynn (Regular for Leinster A, gone to New Zealand, massive prospect)
Jamie Hagan (Regular for Leinster A)
Jason Harris Wright (Leinster 22, Regular for Leinster A)
Connor McIreney (just signed for Ospreys)
Kyle Tonetti (Started for Leinster, Regular for Leinster A)
Kevin McLaughlin (Started for Leinster)
Eoin O'Malley (started for Leinster)

Theres still a massive gap which doesnt make sense

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#25 19-06-2009 04:08PM

Crash

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Amazotheamazing wrote:

It's hard to break into a settled team.

Guys like Donncha Ryan or Denis Fogarty could step in to the team now without a huge collapse in Munster's form. It remains to be seen what will become of Buckley, we'll see if Gert Smal has made something of him over the last few weeks.

Oh i'm not disputing that, its difficult alright. Just simply stating that when you look at the age ranges, it does look like a potential cliff edge that'll have to be managed very carefully by the branch.

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#26 19-06-2009 04:10PM

Size=everything

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Stev_o wrote: »

How many Leinster Academy and A players are playing Division 1? Compare that to Munster products in Division 1.

But you must remember that a lot of Leinster players like to play for their school's club which may not be in Div 1 or are on scholarships to play rugby for their college.

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#27 19-06-2009 04:18PM

Stev_o

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Size=everything wrote: »

But you must remember that a lot of Leinster players like to play for their school's club which may not be in Div 1 or are on scholarships to play rugby for their college.

Doesn't say much if Leinster finest products can't guide more Leinster clubs into Div 1. Take Lansdowne aka Ireland U20 they have plenty of academy and Ireland U20 players yet they are still fiddling their thumbs in division 2.

If you look at the AIL history it spreads out like this

* Shannon 9
* Garryowen 3
* Cork Constitution 3
* Young Munster 1
* St Mary's College 1
* Dungannon 1
* Ballymena 1

With Marys being the only Leinster club to lift the trophy lead by Trevor Brennan (hero) who wasn't a schools player.

And there lies the problem, Brennan was picked up for his performances with Rangers and Marys, now count how many players are picked on AIL form and promise then players who are picked solely based on what they did for Leinster/Ireland Under whatever.

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#28 19-06-2009 04:19PM

GymJim

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Crash wrote: »

You have a decent point there actually, however I think it might be a tiny bit too shortsighted. if you look at the current starting 15:

Warwick - 28
Howlett - 30 Jones - 21
Earls - 21
Mafi - 26
Dowling - 26
O'Gara - 32 Burke - 20
O'Leary - 25
Leamy - 27
Wallace - 32 Grace - 22
Quinlan - 34 O'Mahony - 20
O'Connell - 29
O'Callaghan - 30
Horan - 31 Buckley - 28 Dave/Tim Ryan - 20/25
Flannery - 30
Hayes -35 Darragh Hurley - 22

The main fear I see there is that potentially that 5 out of the pack are in their latter years, but still a couple left, while two are in their last season or so. That makes potentially 7 losses over the next while from the pack, which will be extremely hard work to rebuild, as well as your 10. Its not a nice position to be in for any team, longterm, tbh.

I don't deny it could be a bit too shortsighted however they really do have to get players coming into the team (and becoming regulars) over the next year or 2 to benefit from the exeprience of playing with some of the older players before they are beyond competitive.

If you look above I think these are the main areas in which Munster need to get players playing soon. Of the back 5 only Howlett should be moving on over the next 2 years so I do see Jones getting a lot of ML time. You also have to remember that Murphy can come in and cover the centres very well and Gleeson will see a lot of ML time this year too.

Burke should also see a lot of ML time also. I think Warwick and Manning will be the stop gaps between Burke and ROG but still the boy can learn alot from ROG over the next few years.

In the forwards I think it's also clear the likes of Holland, Ronan, Donncha Ryan, Buckley, Hurley, O'Donnell, Grace, Dave Foley and Ryan will all see a lot of ML time this year with a few even seeing bench time in HEC.

All in all it is possible to see the natural progression coming through. It's just a case of McGahan trusting them in the ML for them to develop.

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#29 19-06-2009 04:25PM

Size=everything

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Stev_o wrote: »

Doesn't say much if Leinster finest products can't guide more Leinster clubs into Div 1. Take Lansdowne aka Ireland U20 they have plenty of academy and Ireland U20 players yet they are still fiddling their thumbs in division 2.

If you look at the AIL history it spreads out like this

* Shannon 9
* Garryowen 3
* Cork Constitution 3
* Young Munster 1
* St Mary's College 1
* Dungannon 1
* Ballymena 1

With Marys being the only Leinster club to lift the trophy lead by Trevor Brennan (hero) who wasn't a schools player.

And there lies the problem, Brennan was picked up for his performances with Rangers and Marys, now count how many players are picked on AIL form and promise then players who are picked solely based on what they did for Leinster/Ireland Under whatever.

I see what your saying but you can't really expect a group of lads fresh out of school to single handidly bring an AIL club to the top. Besides St.Marys won the same number of games as the winners Cork Con and were only one point off, Clontarf won the same number of games and were only one point off the winners and Blackrock only won one game less off the winners so the gap is hardly huge as you claim at AIL level

Also didn't Johnathan Sexton get spotted from AIL? I know Munster came looking for him and his brother after seeing them play for St.Marys

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#30 19-06-2009 04:34PM

itsallaboutheL

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Size=everything wrote: »

I see what your saying but you can't really expect a group of lads fresh out of school to single handidly bring an AIL club to the top. Besides St.Marys won the same number of games as the winners Cork Con and were only one point off, Clontarf won the same number of games and were only one point off the winners and Blackrock only won one game less off the winners so the gap is hardly huge as you claim at AIL level

Also didn't Johnathan Sexton get spotted from AIL? I know Munster came looking for him and his brother after seeing them play for St.Marys

i'm not getting involved in the rest of this, but thats basically what UCC have done

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#31 19-06-2009 04:34PM

Stev_o

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Size=everything wrote: »

I see what your saying but you can't really expect a group of lads fresh out of school to single handidly bring an AIL club to the top.

Also didn't Johnathan Sexton get spotted from AIL? I know Munster came looking for him and his brother after seeing them play for St.Marys

Nah's he come through the usual school system into Leinster/Ireland Schoolboys and Underage.

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